Vaccines~ Good? Bad? or Too Many

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Permalink Reply by Lisa Survillas on October 26, 2008 at 8:32am

Carolyn, that article along with the others it refered to were great. I do however agree with Jenny McCarthy in her stance that it is hard to believe the medical community sometimes because pharmacutical drug companies are among the top 5 money makers in the world. But I don't think she has enough science to back up her ideas about the connections between vaccinations and autism. Thanks for the referneces.

Connie Reeder Nichols said:

I went through this same painful discussion 23 yrs. ago when my youngest was born. My mid-wife was radically against vaccines, and I didn't know what to do. In the end, something my mother said decided it for me. She remembered when babies died of whooping cough...

My girls were vaccinated and are both grown and healthy. Before making up your mind you should read the other side. In the end, it is only one of the many decisions as a parent that will keep you up at nights, besides all the, "Mommy, I need..." ;) My heart to yours.

http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=390

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Permalink Reply by Barbara Majeski on October 26, 2008 at 8:40am

Thanks for your thoughts and well wishes. I will continue to share my story with the intent of creating awareness. I appreciate your open mind, thoughtful responses and engaging conversation. Your site is fantastic and I wish you the best with your endeavors to grow you business. Best, Barbara

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Permalink Reply by Barbara Majeski on October 26, 2008 at 6:10pm

Your comments are compelling however they don't rationalize the newborn Hepatitis B vaccine or a mandatory flu vaccine or the mandating of so many vaccines so close together, combined and otherwise.

Your fears about a possible deadly flu outbreak~doesn't mean "the chosen" flu stand for the season is the great protector.

Hepatitis B vaccine is still embedding with preservatives that are questionable in their interacting with a newborns constitution. Furthermore, you still dodge the newborn/infant question. Why vaccinate a newborn for Hepatitis B? Site a decent scenario where an infant can contract Hepatitis B other than a Hep B positive mother. A probable scenario.

How about the volume of vaccines? Their additives? How they effect a development immune system?

Are hospitals getting bigger? or is it just my imagination? How about the infant mortality rate in the US. We have gotten worse each year.

The Jenny article was an embarrassment. Such an educated professional trashing Jenny McCarthy. It was like beating a seal pup. If we take a look at the studies they are referring, we can have a more appropriate dialogue. Maybe if Enron didn't do their own audit we wouldn't have had such a fall out in Texas.

If you wish to administer, to your future grand~babies, vaccines as mandated by the CDC and AAP, that should be your free will. Hepatitis B on first day of life~ would you really take that risk? Are you that confident in the constitution of your newborn? It will be different when you are living the realities of this generation and not reading studies conducted by the government. I believe parent should have free will to protect their children as they deem fit.

Furthermore, we give every newborn/infant the same dose, regardless of size, weight and history. We don't do that will any other medical administration.

How you choose to protect your offspring is neither right or wrong. Vaccine reactions happen and you cannot un-ring a bell.

We cannot discuss the many additives in vaccines that infants/newborns are struggling to metabolize and the overwhelming burden on their immune systems because the science is not available. The fall-out, the stories, the broken hearts~ you find them everywhere.
Carolyn Hastings said:

Barbara Majeski said:

Thanks again for keeping this dialogue open.

I am also glad to see a sensible discussion about vaccines. I would like to add, while I'm very much in favor of vaccines, I'm not sure I agree with mandating them - I like people to have choices. I would rather see education spreading, and more programs making them cheap or free. I think that if people really understand vaccines, they tend to be in favor of them, but there is a lot of misinformation out there making people afraid of vaccinating their kids.

You mentioned protecting the weaker population such as the elderly however I am asking for clarification. An immunization means a child/adult has has a strengthened immunity to a virus however they still can transmit and spread the disease.

Transmission is reduced by vaccinations, especially when herd immunity is achieved (see the herd immunity link I already provided). Most immunized people will not transmit/spread the disease. A few will actually transmit, and fewer will actually catch the disease and become ill, although usually they have a milder case than someone who has not been vaccinated. It depends on a lot of variables, like how well the vaccination worked on that individual's immune system, and also whether their immune system is compromised. Even if you're immunized to something, if you're exposed to it while you're already sick with a cold, you sometimes get it. That's how my husband had the chicken pox twice - he had it as a child, and had it as an adult - he got exposed to it when he was already sick. As somebody said, vaccines aren't perfect. But they do make a huge difference.

Do you consider the flu or Hepatits B a serious illness? If so, why?

Flu kills less people these days than it used to, but it used to be a scourge, and the thing is, it could be again. Animals as well as humans get flu (birds and mammals) so we catch mutated flu germs that have been traveling through non-human populations. So having a working flu immunization program could potentially save a lot of lives. However, flu immunizations are educated guesswork. Scientists analyze the viruses traveling around the world and estimate what will be affecting the population they are looking to immunize when flu season comes, choosing three (or maybe it's four), and then the serum has to be made up in time for people to be immunized. The scientists can get it wrong, or a strain can mutate, however they are pretty good at their estimation. If you are immunized for a virus and it mutates, you still have some protection against the new mutated virus.
Incidentally, some people distrust the flu vaccine because in some forms it still contains thimerosal, a preservative that people seem to think causes mercury poisoning and all kinds things. It's used when the vaccine is shipped in a larger container and the doctors withdraw each dose from it. If that's an issue for you, just ask for a preparation that doesn't contain thimerosal. It may cost more, is all.
Hepatitis B seems mild as you can have it without knowing. But it can develop into some serious diseases, and eventually cause liver cancer. So in a sense the vaccination can prevent future cancer, which is great. Also, hepatitis B is just really sneaky. People, including kids, often turn out to have it and don't know how they got it. It used to be later in the vaccination schedule, and it just didn't seem to be working - kids kept turning up already exposed.

Thanks again. Keep in mind my boys are immunized and I'm not against vaccines. I am curious to hear the voice of other parents. I have my beliefs and concerns and I am pursing strong arguments about the topic.

I have discussed this online many times. One common belief is that immunization isn't effective and the real reason these illnesses have become more rare is increased sanitation. It's easy to see that isn't true - where immunization rates have fallen, diseases have broken out. In the UK, there was fearmongering about the MMR shot causing autism so people stopped vaccinating their kids. Herd immunity was lost and there were outbreaks of measles, and a couple of deaths.
Another belief is that thimerosal causes autism - but thimerosal was taken out of all immunizations (except some flu shots) years ago, and autism rates continue to go up. We could see this in Denmark's records and now we can see it in US records.
The MMR shot in the UK was blamed for causing autism via 'leaky gut syndrome.' The idea here was that the shot somehow made certain people's colons more porous so larger particles of digested food could reach the bloodstream and thence the brain. Certain peptides from milk (casomorphins from casein, a milk protein) and wheat (gliadorphins from gluten) can act as opiods, so some people think these peptides reach the brain. It doesn't seem likely - the peptides are chains of seven amino acids, and normally chains of two or three are all that can get through the porosity of the colon. But even if they got through the colon, it is not a given that they would travel across the blood/brain barrier. If you look this up online you mostly find research done by drug companies who are trying to figure out how to deliver opioid drugs to the brain - it isn't easy at all.

Incidentally, it's a good idea for adults to make sure they've had all their booster shots. A booster for pertussis aka whooping cough is a particularly very good idea if you are planning another pregnancy and aren't sure when your last shot was. There have been some outbreaks due to drops in child immunizations, and it's terribly dangerous to the fetus if a pregnant woman contracts it.

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Permalink Reply by Lisa Survillas on November 1, 2008 at 9:18am

Wow, Carolyn. That was a great explaination. Thanks for asking your friend. =) And for sharing!
Carolyn Hastings said:

Furthermore, we give every newborn/infant the same dose, regardless of size, weight and history. We don't do that will any other medical administration.

Regarding dosage, I can't provide a cite explaining all this, but a microbiologist acquaintance explained to me that it isn't the size or weight of the baby (or person) that matters so much as the number of dendritic cells present in our bodies. Dendritic cells are made in our bone marrow and hang around in our skin and mucosa looking for invading viruses and bacteria, which they recognize by antigens - proteins and other substances on the germ cell surface. When they identify something, they grab it (they "eat" it), process the antigens, and deliver the processed antigens to the lymphatic system, where they help activate white blood cells (specifically, T-cells) by giving them the processed antigens - telling them how to recognize the invading virus or bacteria.

Since the dendritic cells essentially eat up the antigens from the vaccines, the only thing you might consider for dosage of the immunological components of a vaccine is how much protein needs to get to the dendritic cells. But there are so many dendritic cells, and we make more all the time, that it would take really enormous amounts of antigens to somehow overload the system. It's just not something to be worried about.

And consider, too, that a newborn baby is bombarded with many thousands of viruses and bacteria from its environment, from the moment of birth. Actual germs trying to actively colonize the baby's cells. Surely that is a much greater assault on the baby's immune system.

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Permalink Reply by Barbara Majeski on November 1, 2008 at 6:34pm

Two Great points. Dendritic cells and the environment. To your point, dendritic cells are abundant and prodomiately found in our skin and mucosa. Therefore when a pathogen enters our system via the nose, mouth and skin,(natural immunities) the body is designed to recognize the invasion and protect itself from attack. If the pathogen is resilient enough to survive the front line of defense~ the mucosa and skin, it then has to battle the digestive acids. What do you think happens when you bypass the strongest line of defense and instead go directly to the bloodstream? Has science demonstrated that that newborns and toddlers can handle the artificial immune system stimulation that we impose with our vaccines in its cumulative measure? All of the viruses (dead or live), all the immunological agents? Please present these tests and scientific assurances.
I question your statement in the environment being a “much greater assault on the baby’s immune system". Is there any greater direct assault on an immune system than via the bloodstream?

Lisa Survillas said:

Wow, Carolyn. That was a great explaination. Thanks for asking your friend. =) And for sharing!
Carolyn Hastings said:

Furthermore, we give every newborn/infant the same dose, regardless of size, weight and history. We don't do that will any other medical administration.

Regarding dosage, I can't provide a cite explaining all this, but a microbiologist acquaintance explained to me that it isn't the size or weight of the baby (or person) that matters so much as the number of dendritic cells present in our bodies. Dendritic cells are made in our bone marrow and hang around in our skin and mucosa looking for invading viruses and bacteria, which they recognize by antigens - proteins and other substances on the germ cell surface. When they identify something, they grab it (they "eat" it), process the antigens, and deliver the processed antigens to the lymphatic system, where they help activate white blood cells (specifically, T-cells) by giving them the processed antigens - telling them how to recognize the invading virus or bacteria.

Since the dendritic cells essentially eat up the antigens from the vaccines, the only thing you might consider for dosage of the immunological components of a vaccine is how much protein needs to get to the dendritic cells. But there are so many dendritic cells, and we make more all the time, that it would take really enormous amounts of antigens to somehow overload the system. It's just not something to be worried about.

And consider, too, that a newborn baby is bombarded with many thousands of viruses and bacteria from its environment, from the moment of birth. Actual germs trying to actively colonize the baby's cells. Surely that is a much greater assault on the baby's immune system.

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Permalink Reply by Amy on November 2, 2008 at 6:44am

Hi ladies! I think that there are too many vax given, especially all at once. I vax at 1 yr, the tetanus shot, and then nothing until age 2. Then single vax at a time with copious notes each time.

I hate being forced to vax at all, frankly. I feel that it should be my choice and not someone who financially benefits from the decision.

I also firmly believe that vaccinations are causing injury-the same way that gluten hurts many children. It is pushed aside since we are trained to conform with society as a whole and when you do something on the fringe, you are labeled weird or freaky.

I dunno. I guess what I am trying to say is that I think it should never be mandatory(that is horrifying!), and certainly not be a plethora of vax at every visit. If you want to vaccinate or not, it should be your parenting decision.

I am an older mom, so have dealt with being on the fringe for a long time. I don't feel moved to get up in anyone's face about my beliefs like I might have when I was younger. I now just fight for the right to do what I think is right, not try to change everyone else's ideas. Do what you want, just leave MY kids out of it. :-)

Amy

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Permalink Reply by Barbara Majeski on November 2, 2008 at 10:17am

Great opinions! Please take the time to watch our journey:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SL2mRJMnqKI&feature=related

Mel said:

Amy said:

Hi ladies! I think that there are too many vax given, especially all at once. I vax at 1 yr, the tetanus shot, and then nothing until age 2. Then single vax at a time with copious notes each time.

I hate being forced to vax at all, frankly. I feel that it should be my choice and not someone who financially benefits from the decision.

I also firmly believe that vaccinations are causing injury-the same way that gluten hurts many children. It is pushed aside since we are trained to conform with society as a whole and when you do something on the fringe, you are labeled weird or freaky.

I dunno. I guess what I am trying to say is that I think it should never be mandatory(that is horrifying!), and certainly not be a plethora of vax at every visit. If you want to vaccinate or not, it should be your parenting decision.

I am an older mom, so have dealt with being on the fringe for a long time. I don't feel moved to get up in anyone's face about my beliefs like I might have when I was younger. I now just fight for the right to do what I think is right, not try to change everyone else's ideas. Do what you want, just leave MY kids out of it. :-)

Amy

Amy, you're a mom after my own heart. :-)
I feel the SAME way. I don't think any vax should be mandatory by the government. It's a parental decision to make. I also don't feel that it's my place to persuade others to parent like I do whether it is vaccines or any other aspect of parenthood. We do what we feel is best for our family and leave it at that. Personally, we don't vax at all. I rarely bring it up in mixed company because of the volatile emotions on both sides of the issue. I feel blessed to live in a state with a philosophical exemption. Every state should have this option. Many do, but many do not although there are other ways around it. I think the states with the philosophical option should make it more clear since so many parents feel they have no choice. There is always a choice! I sign the waiver form if it's needed for some reason (we homeschool but I had to sign it for preschool) and that is all. I've never once been hassled about my decision not even by medical doctors. That is the way it should be. We even went to a holistic medical doctor that was anti-vaccine, and never vaxed his own kids. That speaks volumes to me.

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Permalink Reply by Sherri McKnight on November 2, 2008 at 10:52am

I just briefly skimmed through a few comments left here and would like to leave my opinion as well.
I have found that listening to my instincts has given me the best results. Experts, I found, have been more wrong than they are right, so I have chosen not to follow what the 'experts' say is okay or not okay.

I do not vaccinate my children. Why should I? Because everyone else in North America does it? Because the experts say I should? Thats exactly why I don't. Almost everyone in North America vaccinates, but what has been the result of this? Healthier children/adults? I don't see that. I see Cancer everywhere now, Diabetes, Autism, Down Syndrome, Crohns Disease, ADD, ADHD, etc. Sure our kids are not developing Polio, but do you think the only reason for that is because we vaccinate for it? Does it matter how the ingredients in vaccinations are creating bigger issues in children/adults?

Why is it that when a Mother gives birth in a hospital the newborn baby is immediately poked & prodded and given a vitamin K shot and is instructed to get vaccinated several times over the course of the first few months of life? Do the doctors ask the parent if this is okay or do they just do the 'routine' thing to each & every child born? Ever wonder why? Maybe it's because if we were given that option we would have to think about it and come to a logical conclusion that NO, this is not what I want for my newborn child at this time.
How did our ancestors ever survive without the Vitamin K shot?

I could go on forever, but I won't bore you too much.
I do the best that I can to ensure my children lead the best life possible. I feed them natural organic foods from our garden, we clean with natural, biodegradable cleaners, they breathe fresh country air and we drink water from a well (no chlorine, fluoride or bleach for us!). My children have been very healthy, rarely catch a cold and are very strong young boys. We believe we are here to enjoy life, not to be afraid of it.

I am not totally opposed to vaccination btw. They are useful for some things, like if a Polio outbreak was to start sweeping the area I would definitely vaccinate for such an epidemic, and that should not be frowned upon.

I was vaccinated as a child. I often had the flu, earaches ALL the time, strep throat, bronchitis, etc. Since I left living with my parents I have stopped with the vaccinations and it has took me about 10 years, but I am happy to announce that I have been ill free for about 6 or 7 years.

Good Luck with whatever you choose to do.

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Permalink Reply by Nicole "The Card Eagle" Bandes on November 2, 2008 at 2:25pm

I don't vaccinate. It isn't like it was when our parents remember people dying from these illnesses. We actually have antibiotics and other things to treat the disease. The science just doesn't support the need in my opinion.

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Permalink Reply by Jennifer on November 2, 2008 at 7:32pm

This issue confuses me so much. I have decided to put my trust in the doctors on this one. I decided to go against some doctors who have said that boys need to be circumcised. That is because I have heard from other doctors that circumcision is not benifical. However, when it comes to vacinations not one doctor has said that it is better not to have them. So I go with what they tell me.

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Permalink Reply by Hummie on November 4, 2008 at 5:45pm

I'm glad my boys had the chicken pox right before the vaccine came out....I trust a good case of the pox as prevention more than a new vaccine.

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Permalink Reply by Barbara Majeski on November 4, 2008 at 6:08pm

Sorry it looks like you have misunderstood me. No, not a bug bite. An injection. A vaccine injection. A direct injection,bypassing the GI and mucosa dendrites that are our first line of defense against a virus.

So, according to CHOP there are no long term side effects from vaccines?

To answer your question, I'm not a scientist but I am educated.

Carolyn Hastings said:

Barbara Majeski said:

Two Great points. Dendritic cells and the environment.

Hey, thanks for reading.

To your point, dendritic cells are abundant and prodomiately found in our skin and mucosa. Therefore when a pathogen enters our system via the nose, mouth and skin,(natural immunities) the body is designed to recognize the invasion and protect itself from attack. If the pathogen is resilient enough to survive the front line of defense~ the mucosa and skin, it then has to battle the digestive acids. What do you think happens when you bypass the strongest line of defense and instead go directly to the bloodstream?

When pathogens invade directly into the bloodstream? Do you mean a bug bite or something?
The short answer is, dendritic cells are in the digestive system and the bloodstream, too. That information was on the Wikipedia page on dendritic cells that I linked to.
The longer answer is that there are indeed dendritic cells in the blood, plus other cells in the bloodstream that attack invaders.

Has science demonstrated that that newborns and toddlers can handle the artificial immune system stimulation that we impose with our vaccines in its cumulative measure? All of the viruses (dead or live), all the immunological agents? Please present these tests and scientific assurances.

Again, I provided a link that discusses this. This link says: A more practical way to determine the diversity of the immune response would be to estimate the number of vaccines to which a child could respond at one time. Assuming the quantities of antibodies likely generated by an individual in 1 ml of blood (one-fifth of a teaspoon) during seven days after exposure to a vaccine, and the number of different specificities of those antibodies, then each infant would have the capacity to respond to about 10,000 vaccines at any one time. Using this estimate, one would predict that if 11 vaccines were given to infants at one time, then about 0.1 percent of the immune system would be "used up."
You'll find the cite that page gives for that information is to an article in Pediatrics, entitled "Addressing Parents’ Concerns: Do Multiple Vaccines Overwhelm or We... I would suggest that is an excellent read for anyone trying to educate themselves about vaccines for their babies and children.
It is difficult to quantify the entire immune system, but that article gives an estimate that we can produce over 2 billion T-cells per day. T-cells are the ones targeted specifically by the dendritic cells.

I question your statement in the environment being a "much greater assault on the baby’s immune system". Is there any greater direct assault on an immune system than via the bloodstream?

You mean the vaccines themselves, via injection? Vaccines are not able to give babies infections. A quick look at the Wikipedia page on vaccines gives a better explanation, but basically vaccines are mostly made either with killed germs, or germs that are alive but have been deactivated so that they cannot infect. Sometimes it's even not the actual germ, but a related one (also killed or inactivated), which will still effectively confer immunity because the exterior protein markers are the same.
In fact, that's part of how immunizations were discovered - there have been old practices back into antiquity of given healthy people diseases, like giving them smallpox on purpose from someone with a mild case, so they wouldn't get a bad case. But an English doctor noticed that some people got quite sick with the smallpox and others didn't, and it turned out that people who had previously had cowpox. Their systems then recognized the related smallpox virus as an intruder and fought it right off. The smallpox virus is called vaccinia, and that's where the word vaccination comes from.

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