Eclipse Discussion
Reading Eclipse? Discuss it here!
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Ashley on -
Hi Julie! And anyone else with a desire to discuss Eclipse.
I cannot tell you how much Jacob bugs me in this book -- and Bella too, but to a lesser extent. And, honestly, most of my anger is directed at SM and her editor because I felt that this turn in his character and their relationship were completely unwarranted by the story. And then this is where I remind myself that this is a story for teenagers, primarily (although that's another complication all together), and that a lot of the teenage angst-y parts that annoy the heck out of me probably resonate with them.
My beefs, to get the discussion started:
1. Jacob -- I get the whole wanting make Edward suffer thing and his love for Bella and even her love for him. What I don't get at all is his forcing her to kiss him -- and then her liking it! That was completely out of character and a bad situation to portray to the target audience.
2. I was reading the parts last night where Bella sneaks out to see Jacob, even though it's clearly a bad choice. I really want her to be stronger. I find myself in Alice's corner, like an adult looking on with disapproval as a teen makes a bad decision putting herself and other unnecessarily in danger. But then again, this is a novel for teens, and I certainly did plenty of all of the above when I was younger.
3. Edward -- The whole over-protectiveness disguised as love makes me insane, too. He snaps out of it, though, to his and SM's credit. I like it better when he admits that it's jealousy rather than over-protectiveness. That makes more sense. And he needs to have some flaws.
4. I think this novel, and Breaking Dawn, would have thrived with more judicious editing. I think it's vital to the life of a character that an author is allowed to take liberal license with words, choices, and actions. However, it's the editor's job to reign in all of that, tighten things up, and maintain consistency. I think that her editor really could have done a better job.
That out of my system, there's so much that I truly love about this book: way more of the Cullens, especially Emmett and Jasper; the great fight scene at the end; Seth (who doesn't love Seth?); the tent scene w/Edward and Jacob; all of the vamp history; the proposal and the bed. Like I said, I think the problem lies in editing that was too tentative.
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Permalink Reply by Julie on -
Hello! Just a quick warning - Breaking Dawn spoilers ahead!
Ashley: I'm sorry I didn't make it to this thread yesterday as I said I would! You and Laura echoed so many of my thoughts so well...Ashley, I could have written your entire post! Although, like Laura, Edward's over-protectiveness didn't bother me - for one thing, I am, admittedly, totally partisan when it comes to that character. But also, I think that in Eclipse, Edward ended up truly helping Bella find ways and find time to see Jacob. I thought he behaved like a real grown-up in this book.
Whereas Jacob...I cannot STAND him in the final two books. (And I do like him in Twilight and New Moon.) He acts so arrogant, smug, entitled, just so intrusive. I have a HUGE problem with the forced kissing, and, like Ashley, I think about all the young girls reading that and it really makes me uncomfortable. To the point that I actually had a brief conversation about it with my young, 12-year-old Twilight protege (wink). This is my neighbor/sort of babysitter (she's still too young for that), and I'm taking her to the movie this Friday. So I actually said to her, "you know that's not okay, the way Jacob forced himself on Bella, right?" The cool thing is that she already sort of knew that; her answer was, "yeah, he is SO PUSHY!!" I felt relieved -- her mother hasn't read the books so I just felt the need to mention that, without making the conversation too heavy.
I have read Eclipse now three times, the most recent time just about a week ago, and being that familiar with the book now, I still can't totally put my finger on what SM was trying to do with the Jacob and Bella stuff. I wonder if it's a simple matter of creating tension between Bella and Edward, because what's a love story without some tension pulling at the couple? And (SPOILER ALERT!) of course, SM knew what was coming for Breaking Dawn, with Bella completely joining the Cullen family in marriage and vampire life, and Jacob's imprinting sort of linking him to Bella (I could go on ALL DAY about that -- that's for another thread). So perhaps SM just felt the need to create a conflict with the relationship, and have Bella resolve it before she takes the big leaps that she does in BD. Still, by Eclipse, we've already had about two (and a half) books about her ENORMOUS adoration of Edward, which makes me feel that Bella's behavior with Jacob in Eclipse is simply out of character. Those scenes late in the book with Jacob absolutely make me squirm -- there's some line of Bella's (to Jacob) that made me want to throw the book across the room, something like, "how can we sit and talk to each other now that we know how much we love each other?" WHAT THE HELL??!! I can't say how baffled I was, reading this book for the first time! And Edward, consoling the crying-over-Jacob Bella and being willing to step aside since her leaving Jacob caused her so much pain? Honestly, this is just ludicrous given the character development over the past two books. None of this added up for me at all. And as I said, I am totally partial to Edward's character (he just IS the whole series for me), but in terms of character development, I think that SM was all over the map here. Laura makes some great points about the things that Jacob represents, and perhaps we're just witnessing Bella grieving for the life that she is about to leave behind. And Bella is a teenager after all - maybe that character is just not supposed to be sophisticated enough to say "it's not Jacob, it's actually my mortal life that I'm mourning." In terms of writing, though -- I think it's clunky and just out of character, and maybe this reflects the editing problems that Ashley mentioned.
Honestly, I wish I didn't have such problems with Eclipse and Breaking Dawn because I'm just such a fan of the series as a whole. And these books contain some of the best moments ever -- like Ashley mentioned, the proposal, the wedding, the honeymoon, etc. I am still totally compelled to read them, as I still want to read about Bella and Edward and the rest of the Cullens, but everything with Jacob -- I think it goes very badly where he is concerned.
I will get to the Breaking Dawn thread sometime soon as well. I'm rereading that one right now.
Thanks for listening to my long rant!
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Permalink Reply by Ashley on
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I have to get to work, so I can't really write a long response. But I wanted to pop in and say: Laura the end your post cracked me up!
I'll write more later...
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Permalink Reply by Tonya (the Stampvamp) on -
Wow! I don't even think I can add anything new or thoughtful to this conversation! You ladies have covered it so thoroughly! And all have represented my thoughts! So what is there to say? Dittos??
Just to chime in, I wasn't bothered by Edward AT ALL. I felt the jealousy thing was a mark of humanity and maturity that he struggled with...and won. He's been a vamp with ice cold "non-feelings" afterall. He didn't know romantic love, he didn't understand it, he saw it...but had not FELT it. He made some choices that had consequences. SM endeared me to Edward the way she wrote the protectiveness/jealousy thing. She first had Edward identify with "protectiveness"--afterall, that's what he used as an excuse to get close to Bella in Twilight, remember? He only understood predator and protection. But it gnawed at him because he knew it wasn't quite right! Then he finally realized (even in Twilight) it was jealousy. He isn't comfortable with jealousy. Remember how it went in Twilight with Mike and crew? He wouldn't know jealousy afterall. As a vamp, he's uberly attractive to others, can dazzle them and they are completely taken in by him. And he knows it. Sometimes, he doesn't even notice it (remember the restaurant and the waitress!). So when the tables are turned? Of course he's going to struggle!! And I LOVE that! I also, because I am completely and utterly Team Edward, love that he was mature/wise/unnatural enough to make the choices he did. Unconditional love, baby...right there.
I absolutely love all the comments made on this thread. I can identify and understand each one. I just wish SM will write us more Twi related books for us to critique.
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Permalink Reply by Julie on
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Breaking Dawn Spoilers Ahead, Once Again!
Oh, Laura -- such a great post -- I really agree with so, so much of what you said! (And Ashley, you too.) I do adore the series and don't want to totally pick it apart, because that can ruin my enjoyment of it, not to mention others' enjoyment. But, that being said -- I actually feel relieved to discuss my Jacob problems! I don't like to make a huge deal over it, because Team Jacob members are cool too, but I needed to vent! :) I truly wanted to like Jacob more -- I really did like him in the first two books. I thought it was so cool that SM integrated Native Americans into the story; I mean, how cool - a character who lives on a reservation! I don't know much about what it's like to live on a reservation, and I love reading stuff that might teach me thing or two while I'm being entertained. And I love the casting -- I think that the actors for the Blacks look great for the roles (although Taylor L. still looks to young now, that will change). So I wanted to be very pro-Jacob, but..it just didn't work out.
In all honesty, some of my troubles with the last two books have to do with the reduced presence of Edward. As I mentioned, I'm on BD right now, and I would have LOVED to read Edward's POV on those events...the man got married! Became a father! Changed Bella! And...we get about 2,000 pages of Jacob's POV. I feel edgy every time I read Jacob's description of what Edward was going through at the end of Bella's pregnancy. Maybe the partial draft of Midnight Sun has spoiled me, and now I want to know E's thoughts all the time. So this is just a personal preference, and one I should probably elaborate on in the Breaking Dawn thread. But it leads me back to this point, which Laura also made -- I need more Edward, therefore, I really need a finished Midnight Sun! And if SM ever chose to revisit the next books from Edward's POV, I'd be unbelievably happy.
May I just say...it's so great to have a place to discuss all of this. I'm grateful for the group (thanks, Tonya, if you're reading!) and grateful to have such kind, thoughtful, bright, and interesting people to talk with!
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Permalink Reply by Noreen on -
OMG! I am looking in the mirror here! Too funny! I feel absolutely the same way that you do about Jacob and Bella - not dear Edward, however ;0)
Ashley said:Hi Julie! And anyone else with a desire to discuss Eclipse.
I cannot tell you how much Jacob bugs me in this book -- and Bella too, but to a lesser extent. And, honestly, most of my anger is directed at SM and her editor because I felt that this turn in his character and their relationship were completely unwarranted by the story. And then this is where I remind myself that this is a story for teenagers, primarily (although that's another complication all together), and that a lot of the teenage angst-y parts that annoy the heck out of me probably resonate with them. My beefs, to get the discussion started:
1. Jacob -- I get the whole wanting make Edward suffer thing and his love for Bella and even her love for him. What I don't get at all is his forcing her to kiss him -- and then her liking it! That was completely out of character and a bad situation to portray to the target audience.
2. I was reading the parts last night where Bella sneaks out to see Jacob, even though it's clearly a bad choice. I really want her to be stronger. I find myself in Alice's corner, like an adult looking on with disapproval as a teen makes a bad decision putting herself and other unnecessarily in danger. But then again, this is a novel for teens, and I certainly did plenty of all of the above when I was younger.
3. Edward -- The whole over-protectiveness disguised as love makes me insane, too. He snaps out of it, though, to his and SM's credit. I like it better when he admits that it's jealousy rather than over-protectiveness. That makes more sense. And he needs to have some flaws.
4. I think this novel, and Breaking Dawn, would have thrived with more judicious editing. I think it's vital to the life of a character that an author is allowed to take liberal license with words, choices, and actions. However, it's the editor's job to reign in all of that, tighten things up, and maintain consistency. I think that her editor really could have done a better job.
That out of my system, there's so much that I truly love about this book: way more of the Cullens, especially Emmett and Jasper; the great fight scene at the end; Seth (who doesn't love Seth?); the tent scene w/Edward and Jacob; all of the vamp history; the proposal and the bed. Like I said, I think the problem lies in editing that was too tentative.
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Permalink Reply by Julie on
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Laura -- it's not pathetic at all -- my babysitter is my movie date! What is Musical Monday -- is this something on your blog?
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Permalink Reply by Julie on
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Hi Tonya -- great post! I didn't see this one since I think I was writing at the same time. You are really astute about Edward. It makes me smile to think of him in Twilight and Midnight Sun, with his "must protect the girl" feelings (remember that he barely used Bella's name in the beg. of MS, just the girl, I think), then that turns into, "who am I kidding, I am in LOVE with this girl, baby!" I love the way he surprised himself with that. Sigh. How much can I possibly love this fictional character?
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Permalink Reply by Tonya (the Stampvamp) on
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Tell me about it!!! SIGH!!!
Funny on the Edward Cullen double billing comment from Laura...I have one too...this happened about 2 weeks ago...
I have an approx. 20 foot vaulted ceiling in my living room...and of course one of the recessed lights went out. Well, we've been in the house 2 1/2 years and this is the first time changing one. So, my husband is on a ladder, which isn't tall enough, and is holding one of those extension arm thingies that you change those lights with (KWIM?) and me and the kids are standing around watching...cause hey! This is entertainment in MY house (JEESH!). So, my hubby really does have incredible reflexes. I sincerely have to give him that. He's one of those who are good at all sports and competition. And I won't play games with him because he trash talks and wins all the time...and I hate always losing. But I digress.. so he's changing the bulb and we are all watching as that thing slips off and the bulb begins falling...well...I'm like oh (fill in the blank...) and he, NO KIDDING, reaches out, twists half way off the 10 foot ladder (never fell), and catches that dang thing in the hand that IS NOT holding that long arm thing!! SILENCE. Then I said..."Wow. How Edward of you." And he beamed.
Julie said:How much can I possibly love this fictional character?
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Permalink Reply by Ashley on
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I'm back!
Julie -- I love this part of your analysis (as I head into English professor mode). I think you hit the problem spot on:
I have read Eclipse now three times, the most recent time just about a week ago, and being that familiar with the book now, I still can't totally put my finger on what SM was trying to do with the Jacob and Bella stuff. I wonder if it's a simple matter of creating tension between Bella and Edward, because what's a love story without some tension pulling at the couple? And (SPOILER ALERT!) of course, SM knew what was coming for Breaking Dawn, with Bella completely joining the Cullen family in marriage and vampire life, and Jacob's imprinting sort of linking him to Bella (I could go on ALL DAY about that -- that's for another thread). So perhaps SM just felt the need to create a conflict with the relationship, and have Bella resolve it before she takes the big leaps that she does in BD. Still, by Eclipse, we've already had about two (and a half) books about her ENORMOUS adoration of Edward, which makes me feel that Bella's behavior with Jacob in Eclipse is simply out of character. Those scenes late in the book with Jacob absolutely make me squirm -- there's some line of Bella's (to Jacob) that made me want to throw the book across the room, something like, "how can we sit and talk to each other now that we know how much we love each other?" WHAT THE HELL??!! I can't say how baffled I was, reading this book for the first time! And Edward, consoling the crying-over-Jacob Bella and being willing to step aside since her leaving Jacob caused her so much pain? Honestly, this is just ludicrous given the character development over the past two books. None of this added up for me at all.
I feel like what happened in this book is NOT true to the characters that were established in the first two books, and it made me crazy. And I truly don't see the benefit in it. The story could have still moved forward w/the romantic tension w/o straying from the characters' core personalities. Jacob is a warm, funny, loving character (I believe), and this manipulation of Bella is inappropriate for him. More suited to someone else, like Rosalie. (And I love Rosalie b/c she is this difficult, bitchy character.)
And Tonya -- I love this part of your post: "So when the tables are turned? Of course he's going to struggle!! And I LOVE that! I also, because I am completely and utterly Team Edward, love that he was mature/wise/unnatural enough to make the choices he did. Unconditional love, baby...right there." Absolutely true!
Laura, I definitely agree with your assessment of the kiss -- "I think for him it was an act of love, desire and desperation for someone he loved dearly and was afraid of losing." I just wish it had been presented differently. In fact, I wish Jacob had been written differently in this book. It's like Jessica Rabbit -- he's not bad, he's just written that way. I feel like there was a lot in this book that was not the Jacob I had come to know in the first two books. Even in BD, he's different.
Breaking Dawn -- Oh my. That's a whole other can of worms. We need to head over to the BD forum for that conversation. Once again -- so much that I love and so much that made me want to throw the book across the room.
A final note: SM originally wrote two books, Twilight and another one whose name I'm forgetting. Twilight is the book we have now. The other three books were condensed into this second big one. They decided to expand it, thankfully, but in doing so we got a much larger Jacob role and Renesmee. I would have been far happier, I think, if those two things hadn't happened. I also wish that SM had been given the time to do a thorough job of writing, rewriting, and editing that JK Rowling was given for all of the HP books. These four books came out very quickly, and it's hard to see things clearly when you're always pushed up against a deadline. Like I am now, so I have to get back to work!
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Permalink Reply by Julie on
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Another awesome post by Ashley! I am LOVING this thread -- I really love being able to talk all of this out. I can't comment too much further right now, but I'll be back here later, and also, will head to the Breaking Dawn thread to get that going!
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Permalink Reply by MAbeo on -
i loved this book - New Moon was so slow for me, that this was the much needed kick in the ass I needed. I had such an amazing range of emotions in this book , and to me thats what clarifys a good book, that makes you run through tons of emotions. I was angry at jacob, then Bella, then Edward, the took Edwards side, the Bellas lol. It was a great book to lead you up to the last book as well.
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